0.8.0 (Experimental)

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zeando
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by zeando » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:43 pm

"And the results are about what you'd expect: they all start murdering and eating each other"
:lol: glad to see progress on that side, now to go testing this murder simulation

(something i've noticed many times) in the world settings, shouldn't the temperature by height model be reversed?
i mean more cold at high places, instead of having hot mountain peaks

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Sassy Cassie
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by Sassy Cassie » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:01 pm

Quasar wrote:Finally! Found the cause of our "no hunters" problem. Spoilers: it's a bug.

I at first assumed it was a result of the simulation: between the reduction in biomass, hunting being a dangerous strategy, and Primum specium's low motivation stat, creatures were just avoiding it, only doing it extremely rarely when they had no other choice. But no: I examined their behavior in a bit more detail and worked out they are literally incapable of hunting other creatures. The hunt behavior isn't being used at all.

Displayed the optimality values, they were fine: creature's weren't choosing *not* to hunt, it was that whenever they attempted to do so, they would instantly fail the routine and fall back to "Wander" (which explains why I've seen so many creatures wandering: "wander" should be a relatively rare fallback behavior, certainly not as common as it has been).

A bit more examination and I found the culprit: creature's set their "IsEdible" stat based on whether or not they're dead. Makes sense, right? Corpses are edible, living creatures are not.

But creatures intuitively know whether the object they're approaching is edible or not, and they won't bother approaching an inedible one. It's how they detect that the food source they're approaching has decayed or been eaten: the object is inedible when it's inactive.

So that's a simple fix: IsEdible now depends on whether the creature is Active, rather than whether it's Alive. And the results are about what you'd expect: they all start murdering and eating each other. You can't have 2 of them in the same area or they'll eat each other. Not quite to the point of mass extinction, but the population barely manages to stabilise below 30.

I'm tweaking the settings now to try and fix that (it seems to be related to empathy and damage costs not being factored in unless the creature can *see* the target, and Primum specium is blind), but initial results are promising. I started a random map and watched a carnivore hunt down and kill three other creatures and give birth to two children before dying. *Maybe*, just maybe, we'll finally be able to get dedicated hunters.

Expect a new patch tonight.
As much as I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE BLOOD BATH..... shouldnt isedible count on something more like....I dunno.... genetic distance or something? Maybe what is considers as an edible genetic distance can change over time?
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Rubix30
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by Rubix30 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:54 pm

AOE22 wrote:shouldnt isedible count on something more like....I dunno.... genetic distance or something? Maybe what is considers as an edible genetic distance can change over time?
I agree. I have always thought the instant inter-family cannibalism is a bit off from natures engine. Possible. But usually not the first choice one makes. Unless your a male alligator of course.
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Skylimit
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by Skylimit » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:47 pm

I get very interesting results with the new patch
However, the defaults don't generate specialized hunters
After the simulation has a sustainable herbivore population, change the settings to reward meat - value 1.1 and discourage plants 0.5
This gives very nice specialized herbivores -0.5 up to -0.7
And a whole series of specialized hunters ranging from 0.3 to 1

Maybe meat a bit to spicy now, but could also still be that herbivores are not capable of developing beyond -0.7 for some reason
Haven't seen any

Natural_20
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by Natural_20 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:46 am

BUG: Creatures keep trying to run to a point outside of the map barrier. They're displaying the behavior "Moving : None", and often do this until they die.

Creatures also wander aimlessly while trying to seek warmer/cooler climates in maps with no climate variation.

BUG: Creatures are displaying "Anger >> Drive off target" (which is flashing very fast) while targeting a patch of empty space and "twitching" very fast (they're not actually moving).

Hunting is definitely a thing now; I just lost an entire ecosystem to a species of 0.8 carnivores. My current map has 0.7 carnivores and -0.7 herbivores as its most specialized creatures. The population is pretty stable, and there's lots of hunting going on, so things are looking pretty bright :) .
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empocariam
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by empocariam » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:46 am

Natural_20 wrote:Creatures are displaying "Anger >> Drive off target" (which is flashing very fast) while targeting a patch of empty space and "twitching" very fast (they're not actually moving).
Got this one too. Managed to take a screen shot before they starved themselves to death. Only ever saw it happen this one time, and because it happened as soon as they two siblings grew up, I thought that might be relevant as well. (both of the red creatures are "Driving off target". I thought maybe they were stuck yelling at each other, and the line to no-where was just something to do with the closeness of the two creatures)

Image

EDIT: [BUG] It seems that when adjustments are made to the World Options, these are not loaded with the save


[BUG]
Crash Report when I set the Color Coding to Eyesight field of view:
FormatException

Input string was not in a correct format.

at System.Number.StringToNumber(String str, NumberStyles options, NumberBuffer& number, NumberFormatInfo info, Boolean parseDecimal)
at System.Number.ParseSingle(String value, NumberStyles options, NumberFormatInfo numfmt)
at System.Single.Parse(String s, NumberStyles style, NumberFormatInfo info)
at System.Single.Parse(String s, IFormatProvider provider)
at SpeciesALRE.World.Creatures.HighlightTint.Update(Creature parent, Species selectedSpecies, Species semiSelectedSpecies, SelectionMode selectionMode, HighlightFilter highlightFilter) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\World\Creatures\HighlightTint.cs:line 209
at SpeciesALRE.World.Creatures.Creature.UpdateDrawables(Species selectedSpecies, Species semiSelectedSpecies, SelectionMode selectionMode, HighlightFilter highlightFilter) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\World\Creatures\Creature.cs:line 597
at SpeciesALRE.World.Creatures.CreatureList.Update(GameTime gameTime, World world, Entity& selectedEntity, Species& selectedSpecies, Species& semiSelectedSpecies, SelectionMode selectionMode, HighlightFilter highlightFilter, Boolean ultraTime, Boolean& hittingCreatureCap, EntityGrid vegeGrid, QuadTerrain terrain, SpeciesList speciesList, Single totalSimulationTime) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\World\Creatures\CreatureList.cs:line 172
at SpeciesALRE.Game1.updateAllCreatures(Object input) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\Game1.cs:line 737
at SpeciesALRE.Game1.UpdateGame(GameTime gameTime) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\Game1.cs:line 653
at SpeciesALRE.Game1.Update(GameTime gameTime) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\Game1.cs:line 596
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.Tick()
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.HostIdle(Object sender, EventArgs e)
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.GameHost.OnIdle()
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.WindowsGameHost.ApplicationIdle(Object sender, EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.IMsoComponent.FDoIdle(Int32 grfidlef)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ComponentManager.System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.IMsoComponentManager.FPushMessageLoop(Int32 dwComponentID, Int32 reason, Int32 pvLoopData)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoopInner(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoop(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.Run(Form mainForm)
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.WindowsGameHost.Run()
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.Run()
at SpeciesALRE.Program.Main(String[] args) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\Program.cs:line 21

Species, Version=0.8.0.327, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null

Installation Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Species\Species ALRE 0.8.0.X
CultureInfo: English (United States) | Decimal Character: "."
UIView: Ecosystem | SelectionMode: Ecosystem
[BUG]: Crash report while I was messing around in the Genetic Engineering lab.
ArgumentOutOfRangeException

Index was out of range. Must be non-negative and less than the size of the collection.
Parameter name: index

at System.ThrowHelper.ThrowArgumentOutOfRangeException(ExceptionArgument argument, ExceptionResource resource)
at System.ThrowHelper.ThrowArgumentOutOfRangeException()
at System.Collections.Generic.List`1.get_Item(Int32 index)
at SpeciesALRE.World.Creatures.Phenotype.Build(Genome genome, BodyPlan bodyPlan, CreatureData cData) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\World\Creatures\Phenotype\Phenotype.cs:line 213
at SpeciesALRE.World.Creatures.Creature.InitialiseFromGenome(CreatureData cData, Single mutationRate, Genome parentCapsule) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\World\Creatures\Creature.cs:line 425
at SpeciesALRE.UI.UIManager.Update(Vector2 MousePosition, Boolean isMouseDown, KeyboardState kState) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\UI\UIManager.cs:line 6944
at SpeciesALRE.Game1.Update(GameTime gameTime) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\Game1.cs:line 517
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.Tick()
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.HostIdle(Object sender, EventArgs e)
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.GameHost.OnIdle()
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.WindowsGameHost.ApplicationIdle(Object sender, EventArgs e)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.IMsoComponent.FDoIdle(Int32 grfidlef)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ComponentManager.System.Windows.Forms.UnsafeNativeMethods.IMsoComponentManager.FPushMessageLoop(Int32 dwComponentID, Int32 reason, Int32 pvLoopData)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoopInner(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.ThreadContext.RunMessageLoop(Int32 reason, ApplicationContext context)
at System.Windows.Forms.Application.Run(Form mainForm)
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.WindowsGameHost.Run()
at Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Game.Run()
at SpeciesALRE.Program.Main(String[] args) in C:\Users\Quasar\Documents\Qu's Projects\Species\Source\Species\Program.cs:line 21

Species, Version=0.8.0.327, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null

Installation Path: C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\Species\Species ALRE 0.8.0.X
CultureInfo: English (United States) | Decimal Character: "."
UIView: Paused_Editor | SelectionMode: Creature

As a side note, I noticed that they were siblings because I was watching their parent. This particular creature was interesting because it was an anomalous 1 carnivore on a word of -0.3 to 0.3 omnivores. I noticed that these anomalous carnivores kept popping up and dieing, which threw off the Color Coding on the map. Maybe since stats like Diet are hard-coded as -1 to 1, there should be set colors for each value, rather than an adaptive color scheme. -- It seems you already did this, and I had the color coding set to Head_diet, not Diet.

I also just wanted to share this creature from the playtest I really liked for some reason. Behold, the Cabbagge-Walker!

Image

0.8 is looking like its gonna be great!

P.S. I know this isn't the feature request board, but is there any chance that we could have like, a "Prune Fossils" from the clade diagram button? The clade diagram is my favorite part about Species, and it just becomes an unwieldy mess during long simulations. Since Long simulations become more and more interesting and practical as the game updates, this seems like something that needs to be done at some point.
Last edited by empocariam on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:37 am, edited 5 times in total.

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20 characters!
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by 20 characters! » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:33 am

OMG. I am going to download this tomorrow, however I fear it might already created ecosystems if the safes can be maintained will be devastated by the change of biomass and the introduction of predators, like serious mass extinction level type things :-)
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Skylimit
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by Skylimit » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:03 pm

I almost feel sorry for these peaceful grazing herds of cows ... that get attacked by raiding groups of hideous carnivores

A strange but common strategy seems to be ... I play lake, the food is on the coastlines
population explodes there and when the food is exhausted, then groups of herbivores migrate into the ocean and die
Now the weird part, like 3/4 of the carnivores wait there, as if they know this is about to happen, and free meals are going to swim their way

I've seen it happen a lot, ..., almost hard to believe this is actually their strategy

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Sassy Cassie
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by Sassy Cassie » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:26 pm

empocariam wrote:P.S. I know this isn't the feature request board, but is there any chance that we could have like, a "Prune Fossils" from the clade diagram button? The clade diagram is my favorite part about Species, and it just becomes an unwieldy mess during long simulations. Since Long simulations become more and more interesting and practical as the game updates, this seems like something that needs to be done at some point.
I have suggested this before, here.
"Always trust Greeks bearing gifts. Your friendly neighborhood psycopath might be that gift."
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Tiberius wrote: Friendocracy? Obviously an incredibly alien and classist society. Down with the Charismatic Elite!!! Friends for Everyone!!!

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White parrot
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Re: 0.8.0 (Experimental)

Post by White parrot » Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:00 pm

Rubix30 wrote:
AOE22 wrote:shouldnt isedible count on something more like....I dunno.... genetic distance or something? Maybe what is considers as an edible genetic distance can change over time?
I agree. I have always thought the instant inter-family cannibalism is a bit off from natures engine. Possible. But usually not the first choice one makes. Unless your a male alligator of course.
I think it's intended.
Skylimit wrote:I almost feel sorry for these peaceful grazing herds of cows ... that get attacked by raiding groups of hideous carnivores

A strange but common strategy seems to be ... I play lake, the food is on the coastlines
population explodes there and when the food is exhausted, then groups of herbivores migrate into the ocean and die
Now the weird part, like 3/4 of the carnivores wait there, as if they know this is about to happen, and free meals are going to swim their way

I've seen it happen a lot, ..., almost hard to believe this is actually their strategy
All these emerging behaviors seriously creep me out. :shock:
At this point, we shouldn't be surprised by anything nature does. She's like a meth addict whose drug-fueled rampages unfold in slow motion and span millions of years.
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